zap wrote:

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First of all.  I was not the one who suggested a cert gives anything other than longevity of service and EXPERIENCE and PROFESSIONALISM in the CLASSROOM.  You made the other ASSumptions.  (btw...I was teaching about 7 classes a year.) I mentioned the cert only to say that I have PUT in much more time than most.  I have taught and certified many more kids and adults than most.  I am skilled in the classroom teaching these principles to kids....much more so than most cops ever have the chance too with the exception of maybe a DARE officer. The qualifications for initial certification, and requalification are more strict and demand more professionalism than ever before. OH...and I've been there and done that too. 

No, but you were the first one to bring out YOUR certs and how that makes you qualified to pass judgement. I didn't start this thread for someone to  run a muck with "me's" and "I's"....it was more of a "is this happening in other states? What was the outcome, etc."

And I know a lot of officers and they do quite well with kids and teens. And they have seen first hand, kids/teens with guns, etc. They have a birds eye view of the "reality" out there. I'm not talkin about a rookie fresh out of the academy, I'm talkin about seasoned officers who have done more than graduate the academy. (no offense to any LE grads intended.) Experiense takes time and a seasoned officer has put in that time dealing with people of all ages.

As for the "seem that, done that" comment.....how long have you WORKED LE?

 I don't teach kids (although I do show them) how to load say a pump shotgun, because it is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT to teach them to have the proper attitude and LEARN how to do it right ... regardless of who is showing them.  My main point when I show them how to load that gun is that if they don't know how to work it and make it safe without guessing....DON"T TOUCH IT!! I think this is just one example of how people who speak without knowing what they talk about show up.

Are you referring to "people" showing up for the class you teach or this thread?

That just shows they have NO training.  No professionalism in the subject of teaching kids.  You have to go beyond the surface and teach the underlying principles if you are going to keep these kids safe.  You have to teach them HOW TO THINK with the right attitude in order to give them the tools so they can make good choices in a bad situation.  That is what hunter ed is all about.

I don't have a cert for parenting, but I think I am a veteran at it, and I believe the statement you made is more about what parenting should be, not hunter ed. (but what would I know....they don't hand out certs for 20+ years of parenting) I think the first steps are in the hands of the parent to teach the basic principles and provide the proper attitude.

I posted the link before....did you look at it?  Or did you ignore it because someone with a 'cert' posted it? 

Cert, cert, cert....Me, I.....geeze.....this is what E-con was talkin about.

It is not political, it is safety for kids who would have no other way of knowing how to act around a real gun and who may have no one else that can teach them.

Again, parents are step 1, classes are step 2 

Gun safety in schools is NOT about teaching kids to load or shoot.  It is about teaching kids who have no one else to teach them what NOT TO DO!  If you find a gun DONT TOUCH IT! etc.  It is geared toward kids of the age that are most vulnerable to accidental shootings by finding guns.  Most of us here are tied at some length to the LE community.  How many times does a POS get chased and throws away something that isn't found?  Like a .25 auto that looks about the same size as a squirt gun? The kid that finds that gun while playing has probably never seen a real gun before.  Their parents most likely haven't either.  Who is going to teach them to not point it at  a friend even if they are just playing.  Who is going to teach them NOT to pull the trigger??  Who?  Is it going to be someone sitting in front of a computer bitching about others credentials not being impressive?  Or is it going to be someone who is putting their personal time where their mouth is to get those certs and who is actually doing something about it and trying to address the problem?

Yes, it should be the one sitting infront of the computer if they are the parent! No certs needed there but I'll tell yah what it takes ALOT more time and effort to be a good parent than it ever took to get piece of paper to hang on the wall to show others!

Maybe I do have certs after all.....my kids are my certs.....they have been in my hands their entire lives and they don't do drugs, they got straight A's, they are realists and not just book smart, they believe in themselves and don't put on "airs" about who they think they should be, etc.... I think that stands for something even if I didn't get an official document to hand on the wall. 

I am cool to the idea of a firearms related class in high school.  I don't have a problem with it other than some of those kids are going to be problem kids.  If it is offered in school, you have to have lower standards to be 'fair'.  I don't think you can afford to have lowered standards or problem children/adults around firearms.  At that age, they can find someone to teach them outside school.  The little guys in 2nd and 3rd grade do not have that option!  They are the ones we need to focus on and protect

There is always gonna be a kid that could be a problem.....true.....this is where the quality of the instructor and the help of the parent comes into play.

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it is too early for this much thought......some one else post now....LOL

 I don't teach kids (although I do show them) how to load say a pump shotgun, because it is MUCH MORE IMPORTANT to teach them to have the proper attitude and LEARN how to do it right ... regardless of who is showing them.  My main point when I show them how to load that gun is that if they don't know how to work it and make it safe without guessing....DON"T TOUCH IT!!

I think this is just one example of how people who speak without knowing what they talk about show up.

Are you referring to "people" showing up for the class you teach or this thread?

 

Missed this in the other reply.  Sorry.

I was giving examples of what needs to be taught to kids.  Showing that it is much deeper than the surface stuff most people (who are not trained or experienced) think it is. My summary sentence is universal to people in classes, on the street, in congress, or on internet forumns.  It was not meant to be insulting, rather to point out the lack of knowledge that most people have when it comes to teaching these very important issues.

You know, this concept seems to remind me of another topic. I can’t for the life of me remember what it is off the top of my head. But it seems this might just become another one of those state vs parents,,,, thinnnnnnngs. Which makes sense. Zap is right when it comes to attitude about guns. But as a parent, teaching attitude sure as hell isn’t going to come from a AtoZ teaching process. I have several kids. One I tell to do something and its done, another I have to watch as they half ass it and then tell them to do it again, and again, and at some point I want to send them through the wall,,,,, and have.. Now you would think at some point their attitude/character would tell them, “you know, it might just best do it right the first time to save the trouble.: BUT NOOOOO. I have tired everything and can’t seem to teach the “mind set”.

 

That being said, I’m not sure how teaching gun safety, or rather “gun use”, can be done well in a school environment if it is mostly about attitude. Seems like a real problem. Because as I mentioned before, allot of parents don’t know dick about guns either. And it seems that pushing it to a education style establishment might have its own set of dynamic problems as well. AKA- zaps “pick me, pick me waving a cert”. Seriously, this does seem to be a problem. I guess it comes down to the age old rule. Let the schools teach the tedious facts of the matter and let the parents teach the attitude/moral aspect. I don’t know.

 

Zap, -

“First of all.  I was not the one who suggested a cert gives anything other than longevity of service and EXPERIENCE and PROFESSIONALISM in the CLASSROOM.  You made the other Assumptions.  (btw...I was teaching about 7 classes a year.)”

Ummm, you don’t see the problem with that statement do you? The certs have no MERIT for PROVING  longevity of service, experience and professionalism.   AT ALL. Hell, the way your using them takes the professionalism right out of it to be honest. You scare me to death at this point. J But like I said before, since your in the field I am very interested to know how you see it and what you think should be done. Its just that so far, if you’re the type that is going to be the one to handle this at a school level, I am deeply concerned… I can just picture the school teacher lounge full of men and women walking around the room with certs in front of them at arm length and pasted all over their bodys, bouncing of walls and shit. LOL 

-- Edited by eltsacon at 11:15, 2006-02-22

Zap – “No....this is not a ME thing.  But, I do have the necessary experience on this subject to counter the BS accusations from those who don't know what they are talking about...primarily related to the quality of the instructors out there now.  The only reason I mentioned that cert was to verify (though God only knows why I bothered) that I HAVE put in my time and have been actively doing something about the problem rather than just sitting in front of a computer bitching about it”

 

Damn. I just re-read that post and have to comment on this as well. I tend to agree, you do seem to believe you have experience in this. That being the case that is why I have mentioned again, and again I am listening. The problem is that you’re missing something. First of all, the “BS” you’re trying to use your experience to go against, well I don’t see it. Everyone here is really asking questions from what I can tell. As a matter of fact, you seem to be the only one saying “This is how it is”, so what BS are you tying to down grade here?  This allies to  “I have put in my time and have been actively doing something about the problem rather than just sitting in front of a computer bitching about it”. Yea, except right now, right? And I suggest you re-read the original post. My take on it is to get opinions on how to deal with this issue. Haven’t heard anyone bitch about how it’s done, since it seems it really hasn’t gone in play yet anyway. The only exception to that rule is “me” bitching about the cert flag waving, which I admit doesn’t have a thing to do with the overall gun training. Personally I don’t know much about the current programs out there where the state, & fed jump in the school system on such matters. Like DARE. I understand the concept but know NOTHING about what it involves or what effect it has had. Anyone know? If so, can it be use as a platform to start something with the gun safety?

-- Edited by eltsacon at 12:00, 2006-02-22

zap wrote:

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http://www.nrahq.org/safety/eddie/index.asp

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Econ...that was on the first half of the first page.

 

Did you go look?  Read about the program?  That is the ONLY thing out there to teach kids who are at the danger ages how to be safe with guns.  It is elegible for grant money as you would have known had you read about the program via the link I provided early on.

 

the BS?  Wasn't it you telling how certs are worthless?  Wasnt it you telling that only cops or military should be involved teaching kids about guns because they were the only ones qualified to do so?  Wasnit it you who expressed that the information being taught should include how to clean and care for a gun? .......need I say more? 

But as a parent, teaching attitude sure as hell isn’t going to come from a AtoZ teaching process.

Honestly...it really can.  After you understand the process....it really does work.  But you are correct, the kid must be willing to learn.  That is why it should be directed to younger kids in the 6-9 year old level.

Wow, now that I totally disagree with.

I feel your pain there. One of the fundamental aspects to teaching in that type of environment is to realize that if the kid doesn't get it, you are not doing your job right.  Your job as the instructor is to put the information in a manner and on a level that the kids can understand the message.  It can be a real challenge at times, and there have only been a couple out of thousands that I have just finally given up on.  Those kids just WANTED to be bad...and they were all older kids too.

Sometimes a different person can approach something in a different way and suddenly it just clicks for the kid.  Dunno, I suspect that sometimes parents (me included) expect a particular tactic or style that works with one kid to work with another.  Unfortunately it doesn't always work that way and it is frustrating as hell when it doesn't.

 Now that I totally agree with.

 

First, gun safety ONLY...NOT gun USE

Not sure here. The purpose of a gun it to use it. And thus to explain the safety aspect of it I would THINK the concept of how to use it would be important.

“Did you even bother reading anything I posted?”

O yea, I have. And if for some off the wall reason I am constantly put off but your cert, love, and it isn’t the simple shallow mindedness you seem to think it must be, then perhaps you should look deeper into it and see, maybe myself and the others here that have commented on it see a REAL problem that your missing. LOL Don’t tell me,, you have cert that proves you don’t miss anything because the state stays so. LOL

“What is necessary is to have people in the schools at an early enough age that know how to handle kids on this topic.  Often parents and teachers are not knowledgable on the subject and are not qualified to teach their kids.”

You know, that now makes sense. When this tread was started, the concept of teaching a young kid about guns seemed very dangerous for some reason. However, after you put it in that perspective, on top of your comment about “teaching kids that want to learn”, I have to admit. Starting young does seem to make more sense.

I did not suggest teaching a moral aspect.  However, it is hard not teaching a kid how to look at a problem responsibly and not have them gain some moral bearing on the issue.

Again, go to walmart.  Would you really want some of those parents being the only source of attitude or moral aspect their kids have?

I totally agree here as well, though like it or not parents HAVE to be evolved at a first level. Sure, it a perfect world scenario but standards set by people always do better then standards that are set by state. Now, being so cert oriented, you may disagree with that but seriously, think about it.

You really haven't read anything I've said have you?  I skipped right over the certification to teach on behalf of the state...(you didn't read that part either)  The cert I was referring to is ONLY in recognition of longevity of service and experience.  My evaluations attest to my professionalism and therefore the longevity of service would not have come to pass without professionalism and expertise in the classroom with the kids.

Yes yap I read it. LOL Perhaps you missed my post about the row boat? If a cert COULD recognize something of that nature, we wouldn’t have idiots in high places now would be. And our current personnel in our own government show that not to be the case. I value your experience in the matter because you have done this or that. Not because you have a state cert saying you have done this or that. The state, (as far as I am concerned), are a money hungry organized crime circuit that make the law so they can do wrong things and say they are right BECAUSE they make the laws. So please, stick with your ideas and experience, not your paper work.

Did you read what I have already told you?  Get a friggin clue pal.  You are making a NON-issue here.  Is that the best you can argue with?

Uggh…. Thump thump,, me zap! Have paper says I brain!.. uggh uggh thump thump. Two can play at that game. : )  And I am seriously trying to get a clue, even from you, but these fucking pieces of paper keep get blowing in my face. It’s getting hard to see and hear you talk. LOL Like I said, I see your “point”, when you quit passing out the who’s who reports. : )

Who would want a cop on the road without a certification from some authority that they are qualified to do so?  The paper just signifies the qualifications of the individual it is given to.  Until know...I really thought that was common sense.

 

I'll answer a few of your other points AFTER I do my homework 

-- Edited by zap at 12:52, 2006-02-22

eltsacon wrote:

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But as a parent, teaching attitude sure as hell isn’t going to come from a AtoZ teaching process. Honestly...it really can.  After you understand the process....it really does work.  But you are correct, the kid must be willing to learn.  That is why it should be directed to younger kids in the 6-9 year old level. Wow, now that I totally disagree with.

I know you do.  The reason you disagree is simply because you have neither the experience or expertise to verify that it indeed DOES WORK.

 

 I feel your pain there. One of the fundamental aspects to teaching in that type of environment is to realize that if the kid doesn't get it, you are not doing your job right.  Your job as the instructor is to put the information in a manner and on a level that the kids can understand the message.  It can be a real challenge at times, and there have only been a couple out of thousands that I have just finally given up on.  Those kids just WANTED to be bad...and they were all older kids too. Sometimes a different person can approach something in a different way and suddenly it just clicks for the kid.  Dunno, I suspect that sometimes parents (me included) expect a particular tactic or style that works with one kid to work with another.  Unfortunately it doesn't always work that way and it is frustrating as hell when it doesn't.  Now that I totally agree with.  

First, gun safety ONLY...NOT gun USE Not sure here. The purpose of a gun it to use it. And thus to explain the safety aspect of it I would THINK the concept of how to use it would be important.

Again, this is because of lack of experience and expertise in teaching kids about firearms on your part.  Don't get all defensive...MOST people who don't know better think the same thing.  I do not have the time in a classroom situation (unless it is a NRA 1st Steps Pistol clas) to teach the mechanics.  It is FAR more important to teach the WHY...give them a bearing on attitude...and they will learn the mechanics on their own.  I have said many times in Hunter Ed courses that I am only there to give them the place to start from so that they may learn safely.

In a school setting...there is no way I want to teach the mechanics of using a gun. 

“Did you even bother reading anything I posted?” O yea, I have. And if for some off the wall reason I am constantly put off but your cert, love, and it isn’t the simple shallow mindedness you seem to think it must be, then perhaps you should look deeper into it and see, maybe myself and the others here that have commented on it see a REAL problem that your missing. LOL Don’t tell me,, you have cert that proves you don’t miss anything because the state stays so. LOL

What part don't you get?  Credentials are only physical verifications from a certifying authority that a person has completed testing, training, and experience to qualify them for various things.  Don't get near-sighted on the paper...look at what it means.

BTW...what is the thing you keep saying I am missing?  You keep saying that...but don't say what it is.

 

“What is necessary is to have people in the schools at an early enough age that know how to handle kids on this topic.  Often parents and teachers are not knowledgable on the subject and are not qualified to teach their kids.” You know, that now makes sense. When this tread was started, the concept of teaching a young kid about guns seemed very dangerous for some reason. However, after you put it in that perspective, on top of your comment about “teaching kids that want to learn”, I have to admit. Starting young does seem to make more sense.

Yup....  sometimes an instructor just has to have enough experience to keep trying different ways of explaining something before the kids get it.  ....even the older kids on internet forumns huh? 

 

I did not suggest teaching a moral aspect.  However, it is hard not teaching a kid how to look at a problem responsibly and not have them gain some moral bearing on the issue. Again, go to walmart.  Would you really want some of those parents being the only source of attitude or moral aspect their kids have? I totally agree here as well, though like it or not parents HAVE to be evolved at a first level. Sure, it a perfect world scenario but standards set by people always do better then standards that are set by state.

Yes, that is a perfect world scenario.  One I like.  Unfortunately, it is not our reality.  Don't get hung up over the 'state'.  There needs to be some certifying authority to be sure those who are teaching are qualified to do so.  I was qualified with firearms before I started teaching....but I was not qualified to teach until trained to do so.  You can't forget the fact that these are PEOPLE who do the teaching.  Motivated volunteers most often (in Ohio that is all there is) who feel strongly enough to go through the wringer and get the credentials to be able to teach what they already know.

 

Now, being so cert oriented, you may disagree with that but seriously, think about it.

Listen, I am NOT cert oriented.  I AM however credential oriented because someone who is teaching my kid should have some bonified credentials to do so.  Therefore, I have credentials to verify my qualifications to teach the subjects that I do.

If you think about it....the state is the authority that certifies cops and teachers.....

 

You really haven't read anything I've said have you?  I skipped right over the certification to teach on behalf of the state...(you didn't read that part either)  The cert I was referring to is ONLY in recognition of longevity of service and experience.  My evaluations attest to my professionalism and therefore the longevity of service would not have come to pass without professionalism and expertise in the classroom with the kids. Yes yap I read it. LOL Perhaps you missed my post about the row boat? If a cert COULD recognize something of that nature, we wouldn’t have idiots in high places now would be. And our current personnel in our own government show that not to be the case. I value your experience in the matter because you have done this or that. Not because you have a state cert saying you have done this or that. The state, (as far as I am concerned), are a money hungry organized crime circuit that make the law so they can do wrong things and say they are right BECAUSE they make the laws. So please, stick with your ideas and experience, not your paper work.

Wow....Z and Y are no place close on my keyboard....  maybe it was just a BIG mistake and not an attempt at insult 

Your dislike of the state has nothing to do with the subject, nor does it have any affect on the quality of my credentials.

 

 Did you read what I have already told you?  Get a friggin clue pal.  You are making a NON-issue here.  Is that the best you can argue with?Uggh…. Thump thump,, me zap! Have paper says I brain!.. uggh uggh thump thump. Two can play at that game. : ) 

Are you trying to be funny? 

 

And I am seriously trying to get a clue, even from you, but these fucking pieces of paper keep get blowing in my face. It’s getting hard to see and hear you talk. LOL Like I said, I see your “point”, when you quit passing out the who’s who reports. : )

Even from me??

If you can't get past the fact that I have bonified credentials for the things I do and teach it just isn't my problem.  I would assume that you would realize they only verify that I have gone to a higher level of training and experience than do most people.  Most people understand that give me credibility when I speak on those issues.

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But as a parent, teaching attitude sure as hell isn’t going to come from a AtoZ teaching process. Honestly...it really can.  After you understand the process....it really does work.  But you are correct, the kid must be willing to learn.  That is why it should be directed to younger kids in the 6-9 year old level. Wow, now that I totally disagree with.

 

I know you do.  The reason you disagree is simply because you have neither the experience or expertise to verify that it indeed DOES WORK.

The teaching to kids is a parents job as well as a certs job zap. Sorry you don’t see that. And that probably makes me more experienced then you since my family tree is a small forest.

 

What part don't you get?  Credentials are only physical verifications from a certifying authority that a person has completed testing, training, and experience to qualify them for various things.  Don't get near-sighted on the paper...look at what it means.

I guess I should give the idiots with certs in my field more then a row boat I guess. If they kill someone it won’t be my ass. They have CERT’s. Geeeezzz. Its not the paper. Man!

 

What part don't you get?  Credentials are only physical verifications from a certifying authority that a person has completed testing, training, and experience to qualify them for various things.  Don't get near-sighted on the paper...look at what it means.

Yep, and as a parent, didn’t need a cert to figure that out. Geeez.

 

If you think about it....the state is the authority that certifies cops and teachers.....

I know, and yet you have good cops and bad ones. Good teachers and bad ones. They all have the same certs? Huh.

Wow....Z and Y are no place close on my keyboard....  maybe it was just a BIG mistake and not an attempt at insult 

Sorry, that was a typo. Not really sure how that happened. A shrink with a cert might say it was a sub conscious thing. LOL

Your dislike of the state has nothing to do with the subject, nor does it have any affect on the quality of my credentials.

Ummmm, logic light is blinking. If a person has a problem with the state, then why would they NOT have a problem with how they may issues certs and thus credentials.? These gaps in logic are precisely my problem with someone like your self evolved with kids, or anything for that matter. As a parent, I hope to god we stay in the loop enough to filter out teachers like you. I know that’s kind of direct, I’m sorry, but my kids ask allot of questions and your answers, or solutions evolve around a thinking based on certs and logic of the age old “just because” theory a bit much. Your “given” is that certs prove, and thus it is the theorem to test all facts. Well, if certs were just that, then 90% of the problems in any field would fade away because everyone would know better because they have proof, but instead of facts proving anything, it’s a piece of paper that says you have training, but not the knowledge or better yet wisdom. Like I said, I know many who have certs and don’t know much. What do you do with them? Would you like it if a complete idiot get the next teaching job because he spent the extra $25 to pass an extra test and has one more piece of paper then you. And knowing them, you know they truly are clueless? Your saying that can’t happen. I’m saying I see it all the time. Makes wonder about some things. Remember I am heavily certified in my area, and can easily say everyone else doesn’t know dick, but that simple is a simple farce. What I have done with what I know shows what I know, and how good I am at it. Not the fading certs hanging on the wall behind the messages. Geeezzz. Do you get my point at all? You are made up of more then your certs zap. Its what you know, feel, believe, and do that make you. Now you office wall. Man!

As for the age. I lied. LOL . No one want to play with an old person. LOL

But the fact I and some others have tried to explain the concept of all this to you and your that old already, well, that’s another problem all together.

Anyone want to start a thread on certs for god sakes? LOL

Or - its not I think there for I am, but I have certs there for I am?

With this I am done. Sorry to mess with you zap, but damn man. So go ahead and rip me an new ass if you like. I’m hoping there are at least some other that might be able to explain it better then me. Though I don’t think anything is going to make a difference.

And sorry kat for steering this so far off the beaten path.

-- Edited by eltsacon at 16:05, 2006-02-22

No Econ...the issue is that you are bias AGAINST seeing or hearing anything I say because of my credentials.  In one breath you say I make sense...but in another say you hope I can never get the opportunity to teach a kid because you disagree with me.

Hell...you won't even anwer my questions.

I have said over and over and over....I and those instructors I know, are knowledgable and professional as well as proficient in our subjects.  But we cared enough about the issue to get certified to teach.  I keep saying...the paper is paper but what it means has to do with the person.  You just don't want o see that apparently.

Let's sum this up.

I do not think anything other than basic (very basic...not including how to load and use) gun safety should be taught in school.

I do think that basic gun safety in programs like the NRA Eddie Eagle program which is very similar to the DARE program should be taught in schools at the 6-9 yo age level.

I agree in a perfect world we would go back to parents having enough ACCURATE knowledge about firearms that they would automatically teach their kids.  Unfortunately, that is not the real world we live in now.

I believe a person should be given more credit for what he does than what he says.  Even if doing something causes him to be certified or acknowledged for his service.

I do get somewhat bent out of shape when someone with no actual knowledge on the subject tells me how ignorant I am

You know, I think I just have coulrophobia. LOL

Sorry, couldn't resist.

zap wrote:

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coulra who? 

---

Coulrophobia - An irrational fear of clowns.

*shakin my head*....E-con, you smart ass!

BTW....*Ding* you may resume discussion.

noooo waaaayyyy! lol 

That works for you and for me.

But what about kids in major metro (or any other) areas who's parents are not knowledgeable about guns?  Who will teach them?

-- Edited by zap at 11:21, 2006-02-24