scarecrow wrote:

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ESPECIALLY since you are using those "credentials" and "Titles" to give your information credibility.

First off, your quotes were out of context.  Those were in reply to certain things said to me.  Would you want the opinion on YOUR brain surgery by some guy who stayed in the Holiday Inn Express and only said he MET a brain surgon once?  Or would you rather listen and take advice from someone who had the training and experience (as evidenced by the certifications) in brain surgery? 

I think the rest of your response really answered that.

 

 

Are you up to the challange of having a a REAL debate on the pro's and cons of gun related classes at the high school level? 

Always.  Did you read what I wrote directly about that subject?

 

Using logic, calm, reasoning, without attacking fellow debators????  

Attacking and defending are two different things.  Maybe you should re-read the thread.  If you disagree with me ....thats cool....I"m a big boy.  BUT, do not expect to attack my credibility when it is obvious you are are blowing your words out of your ass...and me just to ignore you.  That has nothing to do with professionalism, which, I might add, is different in different professions.  You are applying 'cop professionalism' for the street.  We are not on the street here.  Nor are we in the classroom.

 

Others have said it and I agree...we are interested in hearing what you and others have to say, whether or not any of us agree with each other is irrelevent.. it doesn't make anyone of us more WRONG or more right than someone else in this thread.

Good.  I have said plenty trying to point out that it is not my certificates...but my certifications and expereince that give credibility to what I say.  Maybe I didn't sugar coat it enough for you to like it....  <shrug>  grow up and get over it.  That does not make it inaccurate, discredited, or mistaken.

 

Oh, and Zap... if you really wish to debate the certs, credibility, etc issues further.. start a thread and let me know where it is... I'll join you. Surf's up.... lets go!!!

I don't know what debate you want to have.  Credibility can be confirmed (much more often than not) by certificates of various things.  The ONLY cert I brought up was the longevity of service.  Which btw has nothing to do with how long it has been since I have taught a course.  I skipped right over the certifications that confer the title of instructor for various things.  I did briefly mention that you go through the wringer to get them...which you do.

The fact is that just because I mentioned that I am certified in one or two areas, only was to let those I was answering know that I was not just forming an opinion based on helping with a course once, or meeting an instructor when I was 12.  You would not know that unless I have told you that.

You made an issue about my LE training.  If I told you that I had 27 years on the street, and a portfolio of certifications 3 inches thick....that would mean something to you wouldn't it?  Instead, I had only said (in response to a direct point) that I have received LE training in firearms, and that from my actual experience with kids in the classrooms, LE type firearms training is most certainly not geared to kids. 

Questioning my LE experience does not detract from my knowing how my LE academy handled firearms training.  I was there, I did expereince it.  If I never get a job in LE, that will not just expire and become a non-event or otherwise worthless.  Similarly, when I last taught a class does not detract from the number of classes and hours I have spent teaching these very things to kids.

I have said over and over.  This is NOT about ME.  It NEVER was.  At least I did not make it so.   The profesionalism of certified instructors in my state were being demeaned.  That IS something I know about.  To make the point that I DO know about this....I pointed out my experience an credentials in what should have been a nominal and only informational way.

If you or anyone else wants to attack me on the grounds of my briefly mentioning my credentials in an only informative, background setting manner....so be it.  It just shows everyone here you have nothing to attack my points or ideas on....so you wish to cloud the water and attack me personally.

Have fun. 

 

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Scarecrow. I know what you’re trying to say. Give it up. I seriously think zap is totally incapable of comprehending certain concepts, traits, beliefs, fundamentals, or principles. A shark could bite him on the ass, and if he has pre-convinced himself that sharks don’t bite, then your never going to convince him. He will, till the end of time, explain to you how a particular cellular organism just happened to be infecting the shark at that exact moment causing it veer off coarse, then open and then shut its mouth. And he just so happened to be in the way!!!! I re-read this threat again and again and have notice that whenever a flaw is brought up in his statement, he changes the conditions of the statement to fit what he said. YOU CANNOT REASON WITH THAT!!! It’s IMPOSSIBLE!

As for your statements, since this post started I’ve done some research. It turns out that there have been many states that have been trying to start similar programs but most, if not all, have failed be for they got started.  In one case they set up the program at a high school level, but before the first day it was tore down. The reason was in three parts. The first reason was the parents of the school that was near a larger city, (Don’t remember which simply because I’ve done to much reading to get information from people who actually know something, cert or not). They claimed, (or more likely feared), that the subject of guns belonged anywhere but in a school. Probably residue to the “GUNS IN SCHOOLS FEAR”. Another problem was insurance company’s basically said,,, “bad idea”, and “won’t touch that with a ten foot pole”. More then likely another residue of the same problem, but with money. The third was many people in the schools themselves. GET THIS, even though the teachers involved in this primarily had stuff they would teach like any other subject, but also would have speakers come in like cops, military, even the “now” questionable “hunter teachers” for lack of a better term. They have hundreds of movies that have already been made, plus books, you name it. BUT other teachers were concerned that the concept of making kids “aware” of guns is “inherently dangerous.”  (As if they don’t know!)

If you ask me, those are the typical people that bury their heads in the sand and hope problems will be “whisked away…”  AKA- bullshit. You might not agree with me, don’t know. But if your looking figure out a way to tackle a problem, I don’t believe the concept of , “dealing with it” makes it “inherently dangerous”. On the other hand, having several kids, I know kids can do DUMB things and that is what people might be afraid of. I would like to think that since the coarse really is about gun safety, it would be the last place to worry about it. Don’t know.

Kat! I don’t know if that helps, but good god you would not believe the bullshit you have to read through to get even a tad bit of real info on this subject….

…… much like this threat. LOL

humm, ok. Now that simple 4 point rule would seem to be common sense. So, I agree. That should be taught to kids in those ages. But I’m sure you would agree that there isn’t much to that. I mean, that’s a one time, (gather in the gym) kind of speech. Yes? Or are you saying each of those rules should be taken in depth? And make a,,,,, coarse out of it, for lack of a better term? Now I would think that parents would teach those rules in the first place, but you and I have both said that can’t necessarily be counted on in this day and age. So, the real question I guess, is what about high school? Should it be taken to the next step? Now to me, a kid that is interested would love it, another that isn’t, wouldn’t be. So in the end, would it benefit or not. Honestly, I don’t know really. At one point you (zap) said something along the lines of, you can’t teach a high school student as well as a younger kid. Well, true. But you can’t teach a younger kid the level of safety that you can teach a high school student. So, does this become a “throw the truth out there and hope for the best?”, or a “Do what we can when they are little and hope when they are older they just don’t become assholes and end up on the news?” I guess what I really don’t understand is if we did try to teach them in high school, what the hell would we really teach them? I mean honestly, zap’s 4 rules of “don’t get involved with that gun”, situation does cover it for the very young. But high school students, these are the same kids that now a days are grabbing handfuls of parents pills just to see what effect they might have? So the 4 “run away” standards probably aren’t going to work. So then what? I really don’t know. ?

ty scarecrow

so does plushleather.

USofAcop wrote:

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Guns are dangerous, kids shouldn't be anywhere near them! -- Edited by USofAcop at 01:00, 2006-02-25

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how did they get to school?

Finally! Some REAL imput!!!!!

Scarecrow...great points in there! Also some things to think about (Gee, we might have a discussion in the midst of all the trash after all!).

E-con, nice research. I too did some and asked a few "friends" of mine in local LE. They had mixed reactions to the piece on the news. One officer told me that he had been to some of the local schools (as an assembly and one-on-one class room) and talked to the children. He said he not only visited elementry schools, but jr. high and high school as well. He said the younger kids were easy to talk to because most had never seen a real gun before and just knew the concept that guns were "bad". But he said when he visited the jr, it was a much different story. He said the students were concerned for their own safety, some had been bullied, etc. He said the level of questions he fielded was much different than the elementry school children. And at the high school level, it was a whole nother ball park. He said some of them had carried guns before, been involved in shootings, etc. He even said at one school they had a "gun collection". I guess the kids could turn in their guns, no questions asked and they were given stuff like gameboys, computer games, passes to laser tag, etc. I asked him if he had taken any special classes to be able to go and talk to these kids of varying ages....he said no, it just seemed like part of his job, to serve and protect.

I also spoke with a friend of mine in the military who referred me to a gentleman who is a retired marine. He spends time at schools talking to teens about guns and "awareness". He also teaches a safety and marksmanship class locally at a rec center. He goes over all the basic safety from what to do if you find a gun, history about guns, the sport of guns (marksmanship competitions, etc.), and gun training. He said most of the kids that come to him see guns "glorified" in the movies and such and really have no clue what it is really like to have to use one to defend. They have no idea the training and disappline involved in competitions, etc. When I asked where he learned to "teach"...he said it was what he learned in his many years in the Core. He said they taught him disapline, respect, and how to project this to others. He said it is actually very easy for him to talk about it because he believes it is worht sharing and maybe even making them see the respect that is needed towards guns as well as the concept that guns don't kill, it is the people holding them! (sounds very familiar...I believe that is in this thread...somewhere) 

I also talked to an instructor at an area vocational training school who is teaching a criminal justice course and he said they are currently teaching gun safety and marksmanship training. You have to qualify to be in the class (which I think helps weed-out the students) and they don't get into this part of the class until the second year, by then he says you really have a feel for your students and the type of people they are. When I asked him about his background....he is an ex-marine, he was a police officer, he worked in the homicide dept., he has also worked security and swatt in his career. He retired and went into teaching after he was shot.....by a teen.....(not once did he mention certs, instead he gave his basic background as his means to teach)

And Zap, you finally took a breath and turned back to the original point of the thread..sort of..thank you. I know and agree with your feelings about the young. And you did present good information to be looked at for the young. But the original thoughts were geared toward teens (i.e. high schoolers) and you did get your point out there as well eventually.

So, I guess this thread has finally made people think past the papers and crap and actually think and look for answers.....finally....real discussion!!!!!! Ideas that make people want to think....what a novel idea....LOL

Thanks for you imput, EVERYONE. I hope I have added to the thread and maybe given you and others a thought or two they might want to share.

See my point zap? It wasn’t against you at all. Really. You were simply saying that because a person has certain cert, it makes “labeled” to be “able”. That might work for selling widgets, but this a potential life/death scenario with kids to boot. That fantasy should not apply.  We are going to need a better system of choosing who does what other then a $25 piece of paper.

Actually...you are finally starting to see my point...you just don't realize it I suspect.

Initially you made issue with 'hunter ed instructors' based on your personal experience with one or two from who knows how long ago.  Kat (I think without going back through and looking) made mention that something other than 'hunting stories' were needed.  (that isn't part of the cirriculum Kat)

The initial point I made was that you can't discount the very vast majority of very knowledgable, capable, and professional instuctors based on a few.  And further, that most who go through the HASSLE of being certified....are already very knowledgable and capable people.  It is about the people...not the certification.  I only mentioned my qualifications to let you all know where I was coming from.

Now...based on my experience with kids of all ages...I would much rather teach the 7-10s.  The older ones sometimes think they know more than they do...and the younger ones sometimes have trouble getting their head around the concepts.

The things Kat mentioned sort of go along with what I said initially as well.  There is more likelyhood of having a highschool kid cause trouble...which cannot be tollerated with a firearm.  Highschool aged kids can get out of school professional training through an NRA certified instructor.  You must pay for the training, and put in additional time.  That tends to weed out the kids that don't have the right attitude.

On the other hand....if you ask should we teach ANYthing about firearms in school...I say YES!  BUT, it needs to be purely of a safety nature and it needs to be taught at the classroom level to kids in the 6-9 year old range I believe.  This age child can understand....you can show them and even TEACH them what atittude they should have about firearms.  So, when they get to the highschool age....they are less likely to have the 'guns are evil' slant.  Again, I point to the Eddie Eagle program as the best thing there is out there.

eltsacon wrote:

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 your “cert are the key to the universe theory”,

That is your problem Econ....that was YOUR accusation....not my theory.

 

your saying that I am starting to see your point?

After you mull things over....and finally spit them out of your own mouth (keyboard) .....you are recognizing the merit of the POINT....  As I said long ago...you are discounting information that I gave you simply because I am certified throught the state that you have issues with.

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zap -"After you mull things over....and finally spit them out of your own mouth (keyboard) .....you are recognizing the merit of the POINT....  As I said long ago...you are discounting information that I gave you simply because I am certified throught the state that you have issues with."

Wow, what a interesting and creative world you live in zap. I mean wow. Big on role playing games are you?, and then switching roles? LOL   I MEAN WOW. Can someone give me some other links to this guys debates. I am dying to read them. You have completely turned this whole thing around and honestly believe you were right all along? WOW. ,,,, I mean WOW. I feel like I'm in one of those weird after school specials with the crazy guy that lives a sadistic 2nd life..... WOW. Well, I guess my older statement about keeping parents in the loop to weed out the freaks, is just. Holy shit! I have to ask, do your re-read your post and somehow many to twist them in your head to fit your new found stand on a topic, and then convince yourself that is what you were thinking along?  And I’m really afraid to ask this next one but, have you ever, or anyone in your family been know to SNAP when that strange behavior problem is exposed?    DAMNNNNNNNN.

(Mini me is hiding telling me to shut up, this man has guns!) LOL

eltsacon wrote:

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Ok, thanks for the links, but how the HELL did you get my email address. I don't ever remember posting it and I don't think its shown on my profile? O, and who the hell are you? LOL You didn't leave a name.  I will go through them. It should be good.

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