Abortion

SB · ohh, canada

RE: Abortion

entre new · Et tu, Brute?

SB wrote:

Should a guy is who is completely up front with a woman about not wanting children to the point of not engaging in sexual activity, and only engages in sexual activity once he has been told by the women that due to a medical disorder she is unable to get pregnant, be responsible to pay child support for 18 or more years if she gets pregnant?
My first question is how do we know that she really said this. Maybe he should have been smart enough to demand some kind of proof. What if a guy told a woman that he was infertile or that he'd had a vasectomy, and she got pregnant? Would people be sympathetic, or would they say she should have known that guys lie to get sex?

About the issue of child support if the guy says he doesn't want the baby after the woman is already pregnant, what should happen? Should the woman be forced to have an abortion? Does the father then have no responsibility to help in supporting the child?

entre new · Et tu, Brute?

SDT, if you look at further posts, I also say I believe we should take care of each other. I was just trying to point out to USofA that if we refuse to help single women support their children because we disagree with their morality, how can we then support gay men who become disabled from AIDS? If we don't think we should help them, because they used poor planning in sex, it should go both ways.

I do think same sex people should be able to marry in civil marriages, and I sympathize with what you're describing. But I think you took my quote out of context. Unplanned pregnancies and STDs can only be 100% percent ended if we stop having sex outside of marriage, and how many people are willing to do that?

SB · ohh, canada

entre new wrote:

About the issue of child support if the guy says he doesn't want the baby after the woman is already pregnant, what should happen? Should the woman be forced to have an abortion? Does the father then have no responsibility to help in supporting the child?

If the woman, who currently is the only person who may decide on aborting the fetus, decides to keep the baby, should she not be the one to bare sole financial responsiblity? After all, she is the only person allowed to have decision in the matter?

What about a cut off week? If prior to the cut off week the man decides he does not the child, and the woman decides to keep the baby, she does so at her expense?

entre new · Et tu, Brute?

I don't agree with that. When the man had sex, he knew there was a possibility of making a baby. That was when he made the choice of whether he wanted to take the risk or not. Same with the woman. To me it's like going out and speeding, and then saying you shouldn't have to pay for the expenses of an accident because you didn't want to hit anybody.

The man can't imagine how it would feel to have a life inside of him. You're a good dad, so you probably have at least an inkling, but I still don't think you could ever get the complete picture. All a woman's instincts (as well as her hormones) say to love and protect this child, and then she has to allow it to be sucked out of her. Like I mentioned before, many women still cry when they talk about abortions of 30 years ago. Do you think there are any men like that? If there are I'd like to meet them.

If I know I can't afford to raise my child without help, and the father says he chooses not to accept fatherhood, that means I have to abort, and I may never recover from that. The father will suffer zero consequences. That doesn't seem fair.

-- Edited by entre new at 06:19, 2006-03-21

USofAcop · Banned

entre new wrote:

I don't agree with that. When the man had sex, he knew there was a possibility of making a baby. That was when he made the choice of whether he wanted to take the risk or not. Same with the woman. To me it's like going out and speeding, and then saying you shouldn't have to pay for the expenses of an accident because you didn't want to hit anybody. The man can't imagine how it feels to have a life inside of of you. You're a good dad, so you probably have at least an inkling, but I still don't think you could ever get the complete picture. All a woman's instincts (as well as her hormones) say to love and protect this child, and then they have to allow it to be sucked out of them. Like I mentioned before, many women still cry when they talk about abortions of 30 years ago. Do you think there are any men like that? If there are I'd like to meet them. If I know I can't afford to raise my child without help, and the father says he chooses not to accept fatherhood, that means I have to abort, and I may never recover from that. The father will suffer zero consequences. That doesn't seem fair.-- Edited by entre new at 04:43, 2006-03-21

What about the women who doesn't give a shit what the "father" wants and aborts any way. Why is there no option for him?

entre new · Et tu, Brute?

Actually, I would almost go so far as to say that she should have to carry the child. I don't like that "it's my body" stuff, because whether it's your body or not, there's a helpless life in there that needs to be protected. I think that's like abusing your child and saying, "it's my house" when someone tries to stop you.

USofAcop · Banned

OK, so then when is it a "life"? (whole other can of worms now open)

entre new · Et tu, Brute?

It will be interesting to see what everyone's opinions are on this question.

I'm not sure when it's a life, but what's important to me is "Can it suffer? Can it feel pain?" If there's even a small chance that it can, it should be protected.

zap · texaschickeee translator

For this discussion....I would suggest we STAY AWAY from when it is a life.

I have said I am completely anti-abortion except in a few situations and then only the mother can decided based on her belief in God etc. In those situations, it is not my place to tell her what to do.

I think the obvious compromise is for the father to pay support throughout the pregnancy. At that point, the mother again has options and can either love the child enough to give it up if she can't raise it, or she can choose to keep it and take full responsibility knowing there will be no support from the father.

Note.....I DO think the guy is just as responsible as the woman. BUT I also think the woman is JUST as responsible as they man. So, if you are going to give ALL the rights and decisions to the woman, why should the guy be subject to whatever she decides with no options?

On the original topic, the gal will have much less guilt later on if she does not abort the baby. If she gives the child up for adoption because she decides she cannot, for some reason, raise it herself, at least she will know that child's life was not cut down. I think Chicks made that point very well.

proudcowife · T.O.P. PIMP

USofAcop wrote:

What about the women who doesn't give a shit what the "father" wants and aborts any way. Why is there no option for him?

Because his ass can walk away the women cant Amen to single mothers taking care of there kids.

proudcowife · T.O.P. PIMP

SlowDownThere wrote:

PCW, I didn't know you had a child, I wouldn't have guessed it. Congratulations.

Awwy ty yes she will be 2 April 10th When I am off line I am a mommy that comes first and for most I dont swear alot around her I do have slip ups I am working on that. She is number one in my life. When im online I am myslef but not in mommy mode I can seperate the 2 tg hahaha.

proudcowife · T.O.P. PIMP

zap wrote:

. As if the child had the ability to make a choice. *shakinghishead* THAT is the kind of thinking that should be punished ....not rewarded I think you did the right thing PCW

Exactly I also think if she could do that to her child imagine what she could do to mine. I am happier now that I dont deal with that shit anymore.

proudcowife · T.O.P. PIMP

entre new wrote:

It will be interesting to see what everyone's opinions are on this question. I'm not sure when it's a life, but what's important to me is "Can it suffer? Can it feel pain?" If there's even a small chance that it can, it should be protected.

YES. they can feel go to silent scream .com they have video there of the baby being taken apart and trying to get away the baby screams .. Babies can feel everything they move kick rotate ect. If they take the baby out of you the baby is alive and feels just as the baby would on the inside.I feel its life from conception only living things can grow.

Monkey Proof · Buttercup is awesomesexycool and smelly too.

USofAcop wrote:

What about the women who doesn't give a shit what the "father" wants and aborts any way. Why is there no option for him?

yes, that is a very good question and excellent point.

proudcowife wrote:

Because his ass can walk away the women cant Amen to single mothers taking care of there kids.

what about the single mom who walks away from the child and leaves all responsibilities to the father?

edited for spelling

-- Edited by MP_handler at 21:08, 2006-03-21

proudcowife · T.O.P. PIMP

MP_handler wrote:

what about the single mom who walks away from the child and leaves allresponsibilities to the father?

there are rarely any cases like that the mothers who think of this give the baby up for adoption. Why blame the baby and take his or her life?

Monkey Proof · Buttercup is awesomesexycool and smelly too.

proudcowife wrote:

MP_handler wrote:
what about the single mom who walks away from the child and leaves allresponsibilities to the father?
there are rarely any cases like that the mothers who think of this give the baby up for adoption. Why blame the baby and take his or her life?

i think it happens more then you think. i personaly know 2 single fathers becouse the mothers pretty much dumped the child on the fathers. in one situation the mother got involved in another relationship and didnt want the child getting in the way.

proudcowife · T.O.P. PIMP

MP_handler wrote:

i think it happens more then you think. i personaly know 2 single fathers becouse the mothers pretty much dumped the child on the fathers. in one situation the mother got involved in another relationship and didnt want the child getting in the way.

Ok I think its safe to say we can agree to disagree.. I cant blame a child or see taking the childs life because people want to be stupid and petty . The child did nothing wrong didnt aske to be made Again thats where adoption comes in if those fathers didnt want the child they were left with then why not adopt the child out to some couple who would shower the child in unconditional love and devotion?

Monkey Proof · Buttercup is awesomesexycool and smelly too.

proudcowife wrote:

MP_handler wrote:
i think it happens more then you think. i personaly know 2 single fathers becouse the mothers pretty much dumped the child on the fathers. in one situation the mother got involved in another relationship and didnt want the child getting in the way.
Ok I think its safe to say we can agree to disagree.. I cant blame a child or see taking the childs life because people want to be stupid and petty . The child did nothing wrong didnt aske to be made Again thats where adoption comes in if those fathers didnt want the child they were left with then why not adopt the child out to some couple who would shower the child in unconditional love and devotion?

these 2 fathers love their kids dearly and would never give them up for adoption..

you have missed the point of the question

proudcowife · T.O.P. PIMP

MP_handler wrote:

these 2 fathers love their kids dearly and would never give them up for adoption.. you have missed the point of the question

Ok what i was getting at is everyone saying what about the fathers say and what about the mothers leaving the child with the fathers if the fathers are happy what is the problem???????????????/

zap · texaschickeee translator

I think this has gone more along the thread about men's rights.

But....the issue is not what happens in particular cases as they can and do go both ways for both sexes...it is about the fact that the women have all the say and make all the decisions, and the men are legally bound by the decision of the woman regardless of their feelings.

proudcowife · T.O.P. PIMP

Ok i have been in the situation b4 of having someone say i want you to have an abortion no not my hubby along long time ago i siad no we split up i did not ask him for anything I gave my baby up for adoption to family members of mine. Because I was a young mother. The babies father is not in the picture nor does he pay for anything. i feel if the man wants the women to have an abortion and she doesnt then thats on her. she shouldnt ask for child support or anything but then again thats just my opinion.

zap · texaschickeee translator

Doing the right thing (as I think you did) is often different than the legal extent some (read most) women push the issue to.

entre new · Et tu, Brute?

proudcowife wrote:

Ok i have been in the situation b4 of having someone say i want you to have an abortion no not my hubby along long time ago i siad no we split up i did not ask him for anything I gave my baby up for adoption to family members of mine. Because I was a young mother. The babies father is not in the picture nor does he pay for anything. i feel if the man wants the women to have an abortion and she doesnt then thats on her. she shouldnt ask for child support or anything but then again thats just my opinion.
What if you hadn't had family members willing to take the baby?

I don't know if anyone remembers a case in NY in the 80s where two children adopted by a well-known author of children's books were found to have been horrendously abused. (I wish I could remember enough about it to supply more information.) That was in the news when I was deciding whether to keep my baby, and was a big influence on me. I've heard other adoption stories, even in my own extended family, where it didn't work out and the kid is still having problems years later. I just wasn't willing to risk it.

I'm not saying I don't believe in adoption, but I'm not sure it's fair to force a woman to give up her baby to strangers by withholding support. Sure she should have thought of that possibility, but so should the guy.

entre new · Et tu, Brute?

MP_handler wrote:

i think it happens more then you think. i personaly know 2 single fathers becouse the mothers pretty much dumped the child on the fathers.
My brother is in this situation with a child he spent $25,000 to adopt from Rumania.

proudcowife · T.O.P. PIMP

entre new wrote:

I don't know if anyone remembers a case in NY in the 80s where two children adopted by a well-known author of children's books were found to have been horrendously abused. (I wish I could remember enough about it to supply more information.) That was in the news when I was deciding whether to keep my baby, and was a big influence on me. I've heard other adoption stories, even in my own extended family, where it didn't work out and the kid is still having problems years later. I just wasn't willing to risk it. I'm not saying I don't believe in adoption, but I'm not sure it's fair to force a woman to give up her baby to strangers by withholding support. Sure she should have thought of that possibility, but so should the guy.

Aee that was the 80's things are done differently now . they do great scans on people and they do ck up visits . I think its fair to put them up for adoption the system is alot safer then it use to be.

entre new · Et tu, Brute?

MP_handler wrote:

these 2 fathers love their kids dearly and would never give them up for adoption..
I don't think mothers who love their children dearly should be forced to give them up either because the father says so.

The mothers of those kids should be paying child support.

zap · texaschickeee translator

Even more so, we can point to DUIs and summize that ALL drivers are closet drunken drivers..... We can point to Jim Jones and Charles Manson and say that ALL guys are potential serial killers waiting for an opportunity.

Reality however is that just because a particular instance of something bad, or good, happened....does not taint the whole issue. This is an issue about abortion or not. The mens rights thread is still there for the other side of that arguement.

When you look at abortion you should consider alternatives such as adoption and the support issues...but you must do so from a morally correct point of view. I realize you may come to a different position than I and feel morally correct. That is however the issue this thread is about. Is it morally correct for the mother to decide to abort a child....and what circumstances would alter or temper that decision one way or the other.

entre new · Et tu, Brute?

proudcowife wrote:

Aee that was the 80's things are done differently now . they do great scans on people and they do ck up visits . I think its fair to put them up for adoption the system is alot safer then it use to be.
My brother and his wife passed the adoption process with flying colors, and that was only 5 years ago. My sister-in-law has always been selfish and immature, and she should never have been given a baby. She disliked the child from the beginning and made that obvious to everyone. Sad situations still happen.

proudcowife · T.O.P. PIMP

entre new wrote:

. My brother and his wife passed the adoption process with flying colors, and that was only 5 years ago. My sister-in-law has always been selfish and immature, and she should never have been given a baby. She disliked the child from the beginning and made that obvious to everyone. Sad situations still happen.

Want me to kick the shit outta her? lol