U.S. of A...SERIOUS questions

Straight Up · Beer please

RE: U.S. of A...SERIOUS questions

USofGay · I feel entitled, so answer me darnit

Straight Up wrote:

USofAcop wrote:

Straight Up wrote:

If you really want to help this kid out ......

Teach him that dicks are for chicks .....

See PR, this is the type of ignorance this kid will have to deal with.

Shut up stupid ......

He would not have to deal with this if he was taught to be a man like nature intended in stead of a girl with serious mental problems

IGNORANCE! Could you at least try to come up with a decent argument if you must poke your snout in here.

Ignorance

Main Entry: ig·no·rance
Pronunciation: 'ig-n(&r&n(t)s
Function: noun
: the state or fact of being ignorant : lack of knowledge, education, or awareness

foxfyre · Buttercult Founder

Straight Up wrote:

Shut up stupid ......

He would not have to deal with this if he was taught to be a man like nature intended in stead of a girl with serious mental problems

S.U., I'm sickened by this response. I don't think any GLBT person CHOOSES their orientation any more than I chose to have red hair. It is what it is.

USofGay · I feel entitled, so answer me darnit

foxfyre wrote:

Straight Up wrote:

Shut up stupid ......

He would not have to deal with this if he was taught to be a man like nature intended in stead of a girl with serious mental problems

S.U., I'm sickened by this response. I don't think any GLBT person CHOOSES their orientation any more than I chose to have red hair. It is what it is.

Well Fox, there are so many gay influences in the Heartland of America.... Nebraska...town of 12,000, that I am sure that someone just presured the 11 or 12 year old to feel this way.

It appears that SU needs to get out of his truck a little more.

Straight Up · Beer please

USofAcop wrote:

IGNORANCE! Could you at least try to come up with a decent argument if you must poke your snout in here.

Ignorance

Main Entry: ig·no·rance
Pronunciation: 'ig-n(&r&n(t)s
Function: noun
: the state or fact of being ignorant : lack of knowledge, education, or awareness

Shut up stupid

.............................................................................................

And FF ......

This kid has not grown up enough to know what he is or is not ..... Way to young to have a bunch of PC bull crap thrown at him .... Wait till he is old enough to make an inform decision that not been planted by groups with an agenda .....

Then .... if he wants to be gay .... more power to him ....I'll stand behind his decision all the way .....

Besides .... my response was more toward pissing in stupids cereal then anything else ....

So heres one for the road ....

Shut up stupid

foxfyre · Buttercult Founder

Straight Up wrote:

And FF ......

This kid has not grown up enough to know what he is or is not ..... Way to young to have a bunch of PC bull crap thrown at him .... Wait till he is old enough to make an inform decision that not been planted by groups with an agenda .....

Then .... if he wants to be gay .... more power to him ....I'll stand behind his decision all the way .....

Besides .... my response was more toward pissing in stupids cereal then anything else ....

So heres one for the road ....

Shut up stupid

I certainly knew by the time I was 12 that I liked boys, and not girls! So who's to say what this kid thinks or feels? You did NOT just tell me to shut up and call me stupid?!?! Since you are incapable of having a rational discussion, refrain from speaking to me.

USofGay · I feel entitled, so answer me darnit

Straight Up wrote:

USofAcop wrote:

IGNORANCE! Could you at least try to come up with a decent argument if you must poke your snout in here.

Ignorance

Main Entry: ig·no·rance
Pronunciation: 'ig-n(&r&n(t)s
Function: noun
: the state or fact of being ignorant : lack of knowledge, education, or awareness

Shut up stupid

.............................................................................................

And FF ......

This kid has not grown up enough to know what he is or is not ..... Way to young to have a bunch of PC bull crap thrown at him .... Wait till he is old enough to make an inform decision that not been planted by groups with an agenda .....

Then ....   if he wants to be gay ....   more power to him ....I'll stand behind his decision all the way .....

Besides ....   my response was more toward pissing in stupids cereal then anything else ....

So heres one for the road ....

Shut up stupid

And you didn't get what you wanted, did you.    NAH!

So, yeah, ummm, SU, you really think that he has come to this point in his life because of a bunch of PC bullshit???

At what age did you start thinking about girls?

KatScratch · Bad kitty....in the best possible way

USofAcop wrote:

The last thing that you want to do is make the kid feel bad for expressing who he is, if in fact he is gay. That is one of the hugest hurdles for gay kids, and why suicide rates are so high amongst gay teens. Being a rural Bible Belt town will most certainnly not help things, and I have a feeling that his parents will not be all that receptive to the idea. Matthew Sheppard ring any bells? The other issue at hand is where does the school draw the line at being involved in this. While it is absolutely the schools duty to protect the child, you must be careful where you step and not step on the parents toes and go againts anything they wish, even if it is full of denile on their part.

This statement is by far the best thing I have read so far in this thread!

The school/teachers do have a duty to protect, but the legalities surrounding the parents and how they may interpret your "concerns" need to be kept in mind as well. Some parents are more concerned with "how things look" than they are their kids welfare. If I were you PR, I would look into the legal issues before getting too involved. Keep communication open with the boy and do what you can to protect him from the other kids while you investigate further into the details. I do want to say that I admire your stand on this and your concern for the boy. Most teachers I know wouldn't bother at all.

Straight Up · Beer please

Shut up stupid

Since you are incapable of having a rational discussion, refrain from speaking to me.

Sorry FF   Any and all shut up stupids are intended for stupid .....   not you .....   You are indeed not stupid ....   And I do apologize if I caught you in the cross hairs by mistake.

Yes at a young age I new my sexuality ......   But Keep in mind the words young age ....    The responsibility of parents ......   Not some PC group sneaking in and filling the child's head with a belief system other then one of the parents own choosing .....

If the parents reach out for the child ...fine ....their child....   their choice ....

But groups that intentionally try to teach belief systems to children against the wishes of the parents is where I draw the line ....   I do not believe they have the right to do so ....

So IN short ... If this child parents do not believe in the gay life style ....   then no out side group or government should try to teach the child otherwise .....   at least until the child reaches adult age and then can choose his own way ...

My belief ....   gays suck ... not my thing and would be very happy if they did not exist ......   ( lesbians not withstanding )

That being said ....   This is America ... land of the free ....   And that means that sometime people will do things I'm not particular thrilled with ....   But as long as they are within the law .... I will fight for their right to do what ever it is they wish to pursue .....

foxfyre · Buttercult Founder

Straight Up wrote:

Shut up stupid

Since you are incapable of having a rational discussion, refrain from speaking to me.

Sorry FF   Any and all shut up stupids are intended for stupid .....   not you .....   You are indeed not stupid ....   And I do apologize if I caught you in the cross hairs by mistake.

Yes at a young age I new my sexuality ......   But Keep in mind the words young age ....    The responsibility of parents ......   Not some PC group sneaking in and filling the child's head with a belief system other then one of the parents own choosing .....

If the parents reach out for the child ...fine ....their child....   their choice ....

But groups that intentionally try to teach belief systems to children against the wishes of the parents is where I draw the line ....   I do not believe they have the right to do so ....

So IN short ... If this child parents do not believe in the gay life style ....   then no out side group or government should try to teach the child otherwise .....   at least until the child reaches adult age and then can choose his own way ...

My belief ....   gays suck ... not my thing and would be very happy if they did not exist ......   ( lesbians not withstanding )

That being said ....   This is America ... land of the free ....   And that means that sometime people will do things I'm not particular thrilled with ....   But as long as they are within the law .... I will fight for their right to do what ever it is they wish to pursue .....

Apology accepted.

This is just a quick response, since I don't have a lot of time. What PC groups are trying to make children/teens believe that they are gay?? The person is, or isn't. The person who is may be conflicted about that, their parents may refuse to accept it, but I think to deny it or try to deny it, is to deny who you are! No one can live happily that way. And a perfect example of someone who tried to "hide" is NJ's own Governor McGreevey, who thought it perfectly acceptable to marry a woman & father a child, while having an affair with a foreign national that he put in charge of state security!!!! I think everyone would have been better off if he had long ago been honest.

phoenixrose · Born-again Firebrand

KatScratch wrote:

USofAcop wrote:

The last thing that you want to do is make the kid feel bad for expressing who he is, if in fact he is gay. That is one of the hugest hurdles for gay kids, and why suicide rates are so high amongst gay teens. Being a rural Bible Belt town will most certainnly not help things, and I have a feeling that his parents will not be all that receptive to the idea. Matthew Sheppard ring any bells? The other issue at hand is where does the school draw the line at being involved in this. While it is absolutely the schools duty to protect the child, you must be careful where you step and not step on the parents toes and go againts anything they wish, even if it is full of denile on their part.

This statement is by far the best thing I have read so far in this thread!

The school/teachers do have a duty to protect, but the legalities surrounding the parents and how they may interpret your "concerns" need to be kept in mind as well. Some parents are more concerned with "how things look" than they are their kids welfare. If I were you PR, I would look into the legal issues before getting too involved. Keep communication open with the boy and do what you can to protect him from the other kids while you investigate further into the details. I do want to say that I admire your stand on this and your concern for the boy. Most teachers I know wouldn't bother at all.

Thanks. I don't feel I'm doing all that much, and I DO perceive it as part of the job. My job is to reach kids...to help them hurtle the roadblocks that impede learning, and help them grow and learn and stay relatively safe, for the 9 months they're in my care. If I can understand where this boy is coming from, I'll have a better chance of doing that.

And, SU, I have no intention of influencing him one way or another...but I will not condemn who and what he is, regardless of what that turns out to be. People are who they are. They all have good and bad qualities. You either choose to accept that and deal, or you choose to walk away and ignore. I choose to accept and deal. Gays/Lesbians don't scare me, repulse me, or upset me. They are who they are...and some are far better people than the Straights that mock and bad-mouth them. The measure of a human being is far deeper than sexual preferences.

woodbutcher · Giggidy, giggidy, gig-gi-dy!

phoenixrose wrote:

Thanks. I don't feel I'm doing all that much, and I DO perceive it as part of the job. My job is to reach kids...to help them hurtle the roadblocks that impede learning, and help them grow and learn and stay relatively safe, for the 9 months they're in my care. If I can understand where this boy is coming from, I'll have a better chance of doing that.
And, SU, I have no intention of influencing him one way or another...but I will not condemn who and what he is, regardless of what that turns out to be. People are who they are. They all have good and bad qualities. You either choose to accept that and deal, or you choose to walk away and ignore. I choose to accept and deal. Gays/Lesbians don't scare me, repulse me, or upset me. They are who they are...and some are far better people than the Straights that mock and bad-mouth them. The measure of a human being is far deeper than sexual preferences.

Bravo PR!! very well said! I could not agree more!

Straight Up · Beer please

phoenixrose wrote:

And, SU, I have no intention of influencing him one way or another...but I will not condemn who and what he is, regardless of what that turns out to be. People are who they are. They all have good and bad qualities. You either choose to accept that and deal, or you choose to walk away and ignore. I choose to accept and deal. Gays/Lesbians don't scare me, repulse me, or upset me. They are who they are...and some are far better people than the Straights that mock and bad-mouth them. The measure of a human being is far deeper than sexual preferences.

As far as I can see ....   you are doing a great job .....   You said that you bought the parents into the loop ( my only concern ) and your are reaching out looking for the information that will help you help the boy .....

As far as what kind of person a gay person is .... or a person of how ever you feel the need to divide different people,    this has no bearing on them being good, bad, or anything else.    People of every kind are people and subject to human acts equally

Take me for instance ....   not fond of two men as partners .....   just not my cup of tea .....   Now two women .....   I'll sit back and watch all day ....

Now whats the difference ....   none that I can tell .... It just boils down to personal taste ....   And if we take away personal taste .... then we loose the freedom that so many fought and died for....

ejay · Bad, just plain bad

Looks like USA has been hitting the bottle hard lately

eltsacon · I have seen USofA's big balls

phoenixrose wrote:

Thanks. I don't feel I'm doing all that much, and I DO perceive it as part of the job. My job is to reach kids...to help them hurtle the roadblocks that impede learning, and help them grow and learn and stay relatively safe, for the 9 months they're in my care. If I can understand where this boy is coming from, I'll have a better chance of doing that.

And, SU, I have no intention of influencing him one way or another...but I will not condemn who and what he is, regardless of what that turns out to be. People are who they are. They all have good and bad qualities. You either choose to accept that and deal, or you choose to walk away and ignore. I choose to accept and deal. Gays/Lesbians don't scare me, repulse me, or upset me. They are who they are...and some are far better people than the Straights that mock and bad-mouth them. The measure of a human being is far deeper than sexual preferences.

Good fucking night!!! O that's a great example to live by! Sooooooo, if this student likes to take neighbors pets and hang them from tree's and hit them with sticks. Do you accept it, or walk away? If he likes to stick pencils up his 1-year-old sisters twat, do you accept it, or walk away? I would hope neither one of those answers would apply!

Now I understand that you are a teacher of education and may, (for many reasons) choose to keep personal life styles out of your teaching, but the fact of the matter is, whether it is right or wrong, everyone is influenced by their surroundings and the people in it. If you choose to accept everything, then it teaches everyone else to accept everything. If you choose to hate everything then that to will teach hate. Either way, standing behind the "I choose to not interfere", is in fact a way of interfering. SO, it would seem to me that WE all have to just decide what we believe is right or wrong and push it one way or another, grow up and get rid of this fucking ridiculous PC shit! Otherwise we indirectly teach that everything is right and I'm sure some REAL INTRESTING STUFF will come from that! Because, by nature we are animals!

-- Edited by eltsacon at 08:51, 2006-10-27

phoenixrose · Born-again Firebrand

eltsacon wrote:

phoenixrose wrote:

Thanks. I don't feel I'm doing all that much, and I DO perceive it as part of the job. My job is to reach kids...to help them hurtle the roadblocks that impede learning, and help them grow and learn and stay relatively safe, for the 9 months they're in my care. If I can understand where this boy is coming from, I'll have a better chance of doing that.

And, SU, I have no intention of influencing him one way or another...but I will not condemn who and what he is, regardless of what that turns out to be. People are who they are. They all have good and bad qualities. You either choose to accept that and deal, or you choose to walk away and ignore. I choose to accept and deal. Gays/Lesbians don't scare me, repulse me, or upset me. They are who they are...and some are far better people than the Straights that mock and bad-mouth them. The measure of a human being is far deeper than sexual preferences.

Good ------- night!!! O that's a great example to live by! Sooooooo, if this student likes to take neighbors pets and hang them from tree's and hit them with sticks. Do you accept it, or walk away? If he likes to stick pencils up his 1-year-old sisters ----, do you accept it, or walk away? I would hope neither one of those answers would apply!

Now I understand that you are a teacher of education and may, (for many reasons) choose to keep personal life styles out of your teaching, but the fact of the matter is, whether it is right or wrong, everyone is influenced by their surroundings and the people in it. If you choose to accept everything, then it teaches everyone else to accept everything. If you choose to hate everything then that to will teach hate. Either way, standing behind the "I choose to not interfere", is in fact a way of interfering. SO, it would seem to me that WE all have to just decide what we believe is right or wrong and push it one way or another, grow up and get rid of this ------- ridiculous PC shit! Otherwise we indirectly teach that everything is right and I'm sure some REAL INTRESTING STUFF will come from that! Because, by nature we are animals!

You are right. We teach through who and what we are, and the things we stand for. I have a hard time tolerating ignorance, stupidity, cruelty, inhumanity, bigotry, and a myriad of other things...but I don't go around looking for a fight. If you're stupid...I may tell you that, and then I walk away and let you go on with your stupid little life. I choose not to be a part of it. If you're not in my world, what difference does it make to anyone that I perceive you as stupid? There is no reason to escalate the matter to open hatefulness or vindictiveness. THAT, is all I'm saying.

As a teacher, in today's schools, I'm mandated to teach character counts...what some might have once called simply morality. WHY? Because it isn't being taught at home to enough of today's youth. Too many come to school ignorant of simply humanity, manners, social skills, & civility. Too many have no concept of responsibility, respect, citizenship, fairness, or trustworthiness. If PARENTS are doing their job at home...then kids should be learning the difference between right and wrong.

I also perceive it as my duty to teach acceptance of people...all kinds of people, whether they're white, yellow, black, red, or green...whether they're gay, lesbian, straight, or a combo. Whether they are American, Canadian, Italian, German, or Mexican. We are all humans. We all have hearts and feelings and hopes and dreams. We all love and are loved by others. We are all worthy of being treated with basic human decency and respect.

IMHO, you are comparing apples to oranges.
There is a HUGE difference between being gay, and poking someone's eye out with a pencil, or beating a helpless animal. There is a HUGE difference between accepting people for who and what they are, and condoning cruelty, violence, and inhumanity.

IF, you have a problem seeing that...that's YOUR problem--not MINE.

It is not my place to influence this boy by telling him what he SHOULD be, or telling him that what he thinks he is, is wrong. He is who he is. I can give him facts, I can explain both sides, I can give him acceptance to find out the truth about himself. Being gay, if indeed he is, is not a crime, and does not automatically make him evil.

I have no problem standing up for what I believe. I believe bigots are ignorant hypocrits, who, if they ever looked closely at their own lives, would find so much disfunctional ugliness to criticize, that it would keep them busy for the rest of their small-mined little lives.

We're animals? Ya think?

You, my friend, have NO idea. I am all animal. When I'm angry, you don't want to be within striking distance, and when I'm aroused?   Hmmmmmmmmmm....Grrrrrrrrrrrrr....Purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr.

eltsacon · I have seen USofA's big balls

Nice. Well, I agree totally with almost everything you said. And I am happy you said it. However, I would be careful with the judgment of what is considered right and wrong and what is legal and what is not. As many like to poke fun at me about, I do have some years. Enough to watch what you take for granted as obvious fact. I have seen change completely! 50 years ago beating the shit out of someone gay and or killing them was the “in thing”, 20 years ago it was just a disgrace. 10 years ago it was news breaking, and today it just an alternate life style. (Understand that these time lines do not apply to the state of CA.)
The point is, what made that change? If you would of said “Being gay is not a crime”, even 25 years ago, and thus throwing it into a completely different category, they would of threw you out of the school and spit on you! If they were wrong then (when they thought they were right), then what makes today’s “right”,,,,,,, right? So much so, that you can consider the entire subject a separate category from right or wrong? Certain places in Europe it is legal to fuck 13 year olds, and marry them. If you use the paper law to separate right and wrong, and that changes day to day, place to place, then how do you know that one thing is different from another? Keep in mind I’m not going against gays, kids with pencils, or boys who play soccer with the neighbors dog. I’m just saying that if you are going to say you are carefully going to influence, basing what you think is “possible normality” vs what is legal, and throw everything else out, then we might end up in the same hole.
Butter might say this is all semantics, and others might say that’s a circle jerk argument, but you know, it just seems to me that everyone is so damn sure of what is and isn’t and it changes all the time. That is why I believe it is important for everyone to be able to express what he or she thinks, even you as a teacher. That way all cards are on the table. And when it comes to kids, who don’t know shit about anything yet, knowing all the cards is important.

phoenixrose · Born-again Firebrand

eltsacon wrote:

Nice. Well, I agree totally with almost everything you said. And I am happy you said it. However, I would be careful with the judgment of what is considered right and wrong and what is legal and what is not. As many like to poke fun at me about, I do have some years. Enough to watch what you take for granted as obvious fact. I have seen change completely! 50 years ago beating the shit out of someone gay and or killing them was the “in thing”, 20 years ago it was just a disgrace. 10 years ago it was news breaking, and today it just an alternate life style. (Understand that these time lines do not apply to the state of CA.) The point is, what made that change? If you would of said “Being gay is not a crime”, even 25 years ago, and thus throwing it into a completely different category, they would of threw you out of the school and spit on you! If they were wrong then (when they thought they were right), then what makes today’s “right”,,,,,,, right? So much so, that you can consider the entire subject a separate category from right or wrong? Certain places in Europe it is legal to ---- 13 year olds, and marry them. If you use the paper law to separate right and wrong, and that changes day to day, place to place, then how do you know that one thing is different from another? Keep in mind I’m not going against gays, kids with pencils, or boys who play soccer with the neighbors dog. I’m just saying that if you are going to say you are carefully going to influence, basing what you think is “possible normality” vs what is legal, and throw everything else out, then we might end up in the same hole. Butter might say this is all semantics, and others might say that’s a ------------------------- you know, it just seems to me that everyone is so damn sure of what is and isn’t and it changes all the time. That is why I believe it is important for everyone to be able to express what he or she thinks, even you as a teacher. That way all cards are on the table. And when it comes to kids, who don’t know shit about anything yet, knowing all the cards is important.

I agree with the point you're trying to make.

Humans can justify their actions, regardless of how right or wrong those actions are. But I believe all humans are deserving of love and respect...to quote a famous man, Love They Neighbor. I don't believe he qualified that with...only if he's straight, or white, or whatever. Pretty simple. Pretty straight forward.

You ARE right. People shift and change opinions with the season, as though it were a fad of some sort. I am not one of those people. I will listen to both sides of an argument, and may change an opinion on some things. Then, there are certain beliefs I hold dear, and do not waiver on. This topic, is one of those.

-- Edited by phoenixrose at 17:09, 2006-10-30